Gavin Newsom is the 2028 Democratic front-runner. That?s what many of the polls and the Polymarket betting odds say.

It?s been widely believed that Newsom wants to run for president someday. But belief that he could be a front-runner was less common. A liberal white guy from a state that much of the country considers badly governed just didn?t seem like the profile the Democratic Party was looking for.

But as a Californian who has watched Newsom for a long time, I was surprised by him this year. After President Trump returned to the White House, Newsom started a podcast, interviewing people like Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon and Michael Savage, which made a lot of Democrats mad. At the same time, Newsom turned himself into the leader of the resistance ? trolling Trump on social media and pushing a ballot initiative to end California?s independent redistricting to counter the partisan redistricting effort in Texas.

Newsom has been willing to try things and take risks. He has shown a feel for this moment ? in politics and in the way attention works now.

But it?s still true that he runs a state that the country considers badly governed. California tops the rankings of unaffordable states, at a time when affordability has become a central electoral issue.

In this conversation, I ask Newsom about all of this ? what he learned this year from talking to figures on the right, how he thinks the Democratic Party can win back voters it lost, why California is so unaffordable and what he?s doing about it.

Mentioned:

Applebee?s America by Ron Fournier, Douglas B. Sosnik and Matthew J. Dowd

?And, This Is Charlie Kirk?

?And, This Is Gaming Culture & Gen-Z Nihilism With Content Creator Brandon ?Atrioc? Ewing?

?And, This Is Michael Savage?

?And, This Is Steve Bannon?

?Newsom Says Trump?s Attacks Are ?Not Normal??

?Barack Obama 2004 Democratic National Convention Keynote Speech?

Book Recommendations:

Built to Last by Jim Collins, Jerry I. Porras

Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

1929 by Andrew Ross Sorkin

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of ?The Ezra Klein Show? was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show?s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

My colleague Ross Douthat talks to the journalist who exposed Jeffrey Epstein. 

This episode of ?Interesting Times,? with the Miami Herald investigative journalist Julie K. Brown, came out back in July. But since Epstein has very much stayed in the news, I wanted to share it now. The conversation is such a fascinating and helpful explainer of the whole case, and the questions that remain unanswered ? with the woman whose reporting led to Epstein?s re-arrest.  

If you haven?t had a chance to check out ?Interesting Times? this year, you really should. The team has produced so many great episodes, especially with leading thinkers and activists on the right. You can find them on the NYT Audio app, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The holidays are an unusually social time, filled with parties and family get-togethers. But for most of the year, we feel isolated and unsatisfied with our social lives. Our society isn?t structured to support connection year-round. So it?s an apt time to re-air this episode ? a conversation with the writer Sheila Liming about rediscovering the lost art of hanging out.

Liming is an associate professor of professional writing at Champlain College and the author of ?Hanging Out: The Radical Power of Killing Time.? In the book, Liming investigates the troubling fact that we?ve grown much less likely to simply spend time together outside our partnerships, workplaces and family units. What would it look like to reconfigure our world to make social connection easier for all of us?

I spoke to Liming in April 2023. But I find that this conversation provides a clearer sense of what?s gone wrong in our social lives ? and how to make ?hanging out? with others more fulfilling.

Note: We're still gathering questions for an upcoming "Ask Me Anything" episode we'd like to record. If you have any questions for Ezra, please email [email protected] using the subject line "AMA."

Mentioned:

?You?d Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don?t You?? by Anne Helen Petersen

?The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake? by David Brooks

Full Surrogacy Now by Sophie Lewis

Regarding the Pain of Others by Susan Sontag

Letters from Tove by Tove Jansson

Book Recommendations:

Black Paper by Teju Cole

On the Inconvenience of Other People by Lauren Berlant

The Hare by Melanie Finn

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of ?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, with Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Kristina Samulewski.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

In a couple weeks, the archives of our show will only be available to subscribers. Here?s why that?s happening and what to expect. 

To learn more, go to nytimes.com/podcasts.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Every Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation about something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike?

Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.